傅元峰访谈：本雅明、阿多诺哲学隐喻中的汉语述相
诗词中的隐喻，寓言了人生哲理 #生活知识# #生活哲学# #传统文化解读#
CHINESE POETS IN ERA OF LINGUISTIC POVERTY: AN INTERVIEW WITH THE POETRY-CRITIC FU YUANFENG
诗评家傅元峰访谈：语言贫困时代的汉语诗人
BY: 傅元峰 杨成前
TRANS： 章闻哲 REV：赦墨
Yang Chengqian: How are you, Professor Fu, as we know, your scholarship started from the research of fictional thought tide, namely the main research realm in period of your study for doctorate—the scenery writing in the novel under the background of the contemporary culture, however, you did thence turn to the poetic research . I know that you don’t think at all that the stylistic difference between novel and poetry constitutes the intrinsic distinction,we can see in your writing the primary part of the diversion has its own things at deeper level. Hence, I want to ask that what is the inner driving power of your academic diversion ? How does it affect?
杨成前：傅老师您好，我们知道，您的学术起点是从小说思潮研究开始的，也就是您攻读博士学位期间的主要研究领域——当代文化背景下小说中的风景书写，而您却在之后逐渐转向诗歌研究。我知道小说、诗歌等文体的不同在您这里并不构成本质的差异，从您的写作中也能看出转向的重点自有更深层次的东西存在。因此，我想请问驱使您的学术转向发生的这种更深层的内驱力是什么呢？它是怎样发生作用的？
Fu Yuanfeng: The Chinese new literature from seeking for new language to now, in my opinion, no fictional work can precisely transcend the achievement obtained by the novels of Ming-Qing dynasties. The stylistic consciousness of the new literary writers deserves attention. Wild Grass is a writing of unknown style, at least it is not prose poetry, but a combined style that neither be the prose nor the verse. However, a tail of light dragged by The Wild Grass indeed. If we seek for remarkable texts of the first half of the 20th century, put The Wild Grass in the first several places, we’ll find the Linguistic deprivation of the new literature. If an era is in lack of writing subject whose capacity of language is rich, the translation would maybe, fill this empty. My arrogance to the contemporary literature / writers, actually derives from a deep self-abasement of being a member of the community which linguistically gets to a internal consistency. Maybe, an icon of the contemporary writers doesn’t exist in group of Chinese writers within one hundred years or so, this wasteland to the writers, is both the disaster and blessing.
傅元峰：中国新文学从谋求新语言载体开始到现在，我感觉没有一个小说作品能够很确切地超过明清小说所取得的成就。新文学作家的文体意识值得关注。《野草》是不明文体的写作，至少它不是散文诗，而是一种跨文体的非散非韵的杂糅。但《野草》拖曳着光明的尾巴。如果我们在二十世纪的上半叶搜罗杰出文本，把《野草》放在前几位的话，就会发现新文学语言的贫乏所在。如果一个时代缺乏富含语言能力的写作主体，翻译有可能填充这个空白。我对当代文学/作家的傲慢，实际上源于作为一个世纪的语言共通体成员的深度自卑。近百年来的汉语写作者，也许并不存在当代写作者的偶像。这个语言的荒原对于写作者来说，既是灾祸，也是福祉。
Whether we can write by means of inter-genres, I think, it is an symbol of whether the contemporary writers can basically be close to languages . New literature’s procuring the modernity includes the cancellation of the boundary between genres. Language is a sort of universals of trans-categories, trans-realms, and formed and framed by multiple dimensions. So, I feel that the first step of being a writer, is to alienate from the genre consciousness. I am quite in favour of writing texts of inter-genres by those students that favour creative writing, but regretfully, the graduation works are designed precisely in demand for genre, as well as the outline of story —which could be seen as essentially an anti-writing.
能否跨文体写作，我觉得是当代作家能否在根基上亲近语言的表征。新文学现代性的获得包含文体界限的取消。语言是一种跨门类、跨领域，由多维构架形成的一种共相。所以，我觉得成为作者的第一步，首先就是要疏离于文类意识。我是非常鼓励创意写作的学生们写跨文类文本的，但遗憾的是，毕业作品的设计有非常明显的文类要求，而且要写故事大纲——这在本质上是反写作的。
In 1990s, the poetry and prose in the new literary history of the Chinese continent formed a converge of genres of strong and weak tendency, this made the 1990s became a quite particular writing era: it was shameful to write poetry, while the novel, was oppositely a pride. To me, at the intersection of 1990s, the most boisterous and successful novel regarded by the literary history, was on the contrary, the weakest one in language practice, of course, many “classical works” were indicated or defined by the literary history. What were so called as the “classical fiction” in 1990s, showing a “ moment of words-being -exhausted” said by Bonnefoy, and the new poetry on the contrary had in 1990s a secret growth, became the genre as the only great fruit left in Chinese’s linguistic practice.
二十世纪九十年代，诗和散文在中国大陆新文学史上形成了一个强势文体和弱势文体的交汇，这使得九十年代成为一个非常特别的写作年代：在九十年代写诗是可耻的，小说则反之。在我看来，九十年代这个交汇点上，最为喧闹的、被文学史认为成就最高的小说写作反而在语言实现上是最弱的，当然，文学史指认了非常多的“经典之作”。九十年代的所谓“经典小说”显示出了博纳富瓦所说的“词穷之时”，而新诗恰恰在九十年代得到了暗地里的生长，成为在汉语语言实现上硕果仅存的文体。
All of the contemporary literature, more than novel , ignore the “silence” and “ quiet” caused by the lack of words, writers have to copy dictionary. Silence is the premise of the appearance of language, writing of contemporary writers generally do not need this premise, they raise the decibel— this is a base on which I make an epochal judgement of the linguistic poverty.
所有的当代文学，不仅仅是小说，对于疏于语词的“沉默”和“静默”都熟视无睹，作家们只能抄写字典。沉默是语言显现的前提，当代作家的写作普遍不需要这个前提，他们提高分贝——这就是我做出语言贫乏时代判断的依据。
Therefore, rather , I have never abandoned research fiction. Except being aware that , poetry is a starting point of speaking, a beginning of “give off”. If a certain conspicuousness is claimed by literary language, silence or quietness must it be, if a text is rumbustious , giving , and speaking out the fact throughout , whereas the all buried can be measured by analyzing through theory of mathematics, reading and statistic, and the quantity of desk work — this is in fact, a false linguistic efficiency. Hence, when I realized the moment of the upcoming linguistic poverty, I made a abandoning to some degree, of both the fiction and poetry. I left the anxiety about the literary form, came to a suspending worry about the Chinese language.
所以正确的说法是，我从来都没有放弃过小说研究。我只是意识到，诗是一个言说的起点，是流露的开始。文学语言要想显著，它必然是沉默的、静默的，一个文本如果通篇都在喧嚣，都在给予，都在说出事实，而所有的埋藏都可以通过数理分析、阅读统计和大量的案头工作来测准——这实际上是一种虚假的语言效能。所以，当我在意识到语言贫乏时代来临的时候，对于小说和诗都有抛弃。我离开文体焦虑，来到空悬的对汉语语言的忧患意识之中。
A few words of Bonnefoy on discussion the voice is pretty right: “ all parole are questions to language, and for contenting the desire of human, occupying the mass that is neutral and ambiguous constituted by concept.” Because of this individual colour, language is again verbalized. The new literature should not espouse the objective linguists, such as Chomsky, they rinse and filtrate the raw mine. The objective linguistics advances toward the technological construction of the public information, what it cleans up is the residue of individual life , living and existence, the ambiguity of daily life. Whereas the writing is to unswervingly lead such mass come back to the individual realm in which the subjective linguists is interested, make language come back again to the quality of confusion. A good work, which includes sufficiency of language, must be the fruit of walking out of the community of language. They’ll resolutely come back to parole , to the individual whispers.
我觉得博纳富瓦在对声音的谈论当中有几句话说得非常好：“一切言语（parole）都是对语言（langue）的质疑，是为了人类需求而将概念性所指构成的中性而晦涩的团块占为己有。”因为这种个体的抹色，语言被重新言语化了。新文学不应当信奉客观语言学家们，如乔姆斯基，他们为了收缴这些个体语言表征以构成一个概括性的团块，进行原矿的过滤和清洗。客观语言学走向公共信息的技术构架，清洗掉的是个体的生命、生活和存在的残渣，是日常生活的模糊性。而写作就是坚定不移地引领这样的团块重新回归主观语言学家感兴趣的个体领域，使语言重新得到混沌的质感。好的作品，有语言充分蕴含的，一定是走出语言共通体的成果，它们坚定回归于言语，回到个体的絮语之中。
Yang chengqian: I find that, whether it is the fictional research, ideological research and the research of literary history during the former period, or the subsequent poetry research, the negative words such as “ hardship” “stuck” “ involved” “slip”, and so on, are your start point and problem awareness of the academic research, which seems to foreshadow certain radical indication of your thoughts and writing. Teacher Si Rong in his criticizing your poetic criticism takes “ anxiety of the aesthetic redemption” as theme, with which I agree very much, then, whether this root indication in your academic thoughts is an anxiety about the current culture and aesthetics? What is the cause of this anxiety? Could you just simply expound for us?
杨成前：我观察到，无论是前期的小说研究、思潮研究、文学史研究，还是后续的诗歌研究，诸如“困厄”“困顿”“沦陷”“错失”等否定性语词成为您学术研究的生发点和问题意识，这似乎昭示了您思考和写作的某种根源性指向。施龙老师在写您的诗歌批评论时用了“审美救赎的焦虑”作为主题，我十分认同，那么，您学术思考中的这种根源性指向是否就是对当下文化与审美的焦虑呢？这种焦虑产生的原因是什么？您能否简单阐述一下。
Fu Yuanfeng: as a reader or researcher, as a seeker for individuals’ abundant connotation, I realize I have been dwelling on the desert of Chinese language from 20th century to the 21st century: desolate, barren, and be difficult to see life feeling or life consciousness of individuals’ language . But people among it have a sort of self-content, and a morbid delusion of the canonization. Of course, sometimes a man fancies standing on the Gobi Desert at Yangguan, fancies standing there for a little longer. The researchers of this time do not worry, maybe is what makes me anxious most. Then , should I continue to be an old Cynic?No, don’t abandon yourself to be an waverer, you must seek a deeper and heavier base for your thinking.
傅元峰：作为一个读者或研究者，作为个体丰富性的谋求者，我意识到自己处在这片二十世纪至二十一世纪的汉语荒原上：苍凉，寸草不生，难以看到个体语言的生命感或生命意识。但人们在其中却有一种自我满足，对经典化形成了一种病态的错觉。当然，有时一个人站在阳关的戈壁滩上，喜欢多站那么一会儿。这个时代的研究者不焦虑，这可能是最让我焦虑的一点。那么，继续做老愤青吗？不行，不能纵容自己成为一个游移不定者，必须寻找自己思考的一个更深重的根据。
Hence, I notice the comparison between mourning emotion and depressive disorder made by Freud, feeling that I am on a threshold between the mourning emotion and cultural depressive disorder. Following my tutors, the attention of an idealist had I ever stayed on for a long time, steaming against the wind, dealing with the existence of myself as a storm of progress. Later, I met the redemptive theory of the new angel raised by Benjamin. Benjamin transcended the scheme of dualistic opposition between progressive and retrogressive, advanced and backward, dark and bright, entering a new dimension of thought. Touching Benjamin’s thoughts, is a moment of my splitting away from the flood current of historical timing. Benjamin had ever said that, the contemplation was too easy to make us totally lose our base under feet , my contemplation will not cease until the time collapses. Such a hobby also originated from my struggling for my own life a little of individual space . Right, a city of ego. For several years, my perception on the research of the urban culture was just the city of entity, not of image, but things physically forged, and accumulated by history without the linguistic efficiency, thus, we can only follow Benjamin to construct a city of ego, through this city of ego, keeping us interested in spacial existence. And then to re-think the depression. About the depression, Benjamin has a parlance that is pretty interesting: “ the biggest heritage of the Baroque passed down to the Renaissance, is just the depression.” This depression, which I suppose to be a special attribution, brought about the possibility of a very broad inter-subjectivity’s formation in generating of the art and literature during the period of Renaissance. The art at that time began to learn a certain category belonging to daily life, by 17th century, starting to emerge in some forms of art. Here, might have a shadow of the new angels. Many centuries before Benjamin’s defining it, it had existed and began to brew . These tides were all liberated from a mindset of dualistic cultural politic, and have obtained a special existence of doubting the progress and historicism time.
所以我注意到了弗洛伊德对于哀悼情感和抑郁症的比照，我觉得我大概处于一个哀悼情感和文化抑郁症的临界点上。追随我的导师们，我曾一度长久地停留于一个理想主义者的注意力上，逆风而行，把自我的存在处理为一种进步的风暴。后来看到了本雅明关于新天使的救赎理论。本雅明超脱了进步的或退步的、先进的或落后的、黑暗的或光明的二元对立格局，进入了一个新的思想维度。接触本雅明的思想，是我从历史时间的洪流当中将自己甩脱出来的一个时刻。本雅明说过，沉思太容易导致脚下根基的全然丧失，我的沉思不到陷落之时绝不停止。这样的一个癖好也根源于我对自我的生命必须争得一点个体空间的执拗。对，一座自我之城。多年来，我对于城市文化研究的心得就是，实体的、非意象的城市，是物理锻造、历史积存而没有语言效能的东西，这样只能跟随本雅明建构一座自我之城，通过这座自我之城保持着对空间存在的兴趣。然后来重新思考忧郁。关于忧郁，本雅明有一个非常有意思的说法：“巴洛克传给文艺复兴的最大遗产是忧郁。”这个忧郁我觉得是空间属性的，它给文艺复兴时期文学和艺术的产生带来了非常宽广的主体间性形成的可能。艺术在那个时候开始学习属于日常生活的某种范畴，到十七世纪，在一些艺术形式当中开始显现。这里面可能带有新天使的影子，在本雅明界定它之前，它已经先于他好多世纪开始酝酿和存在。这些潮流都是从一个二元的文化政治的思维当中解脱出来，获得了一种怀疑进步和历史主义时间的空间性存在。
作为语言反讽陈营的“教官”，傅元峰与翟永明的白夜之间的张力似乎在于使得评论家的先锋身份得以突显
Yang Chengquan: In the current context, where does this possibility of redemption dwell?
杨成前：在当下的时代语境中，这种救赎的可能性存在于哪里？
Fu Yuanfeng: I think maybe there need to cut off a certain linguistic relation, come back again to a parole of ego. Jean- Luc Nancy in his book The Useless Community, what he thought was how to deal with the relation between individuals and communities. The difficult is , there maybe doesn’t exist a community of spiritual prisoner. It’s pretty difficult to find community in prison. When there isn’t a community, individuals themselves need to construct a phenomenon of certain style of ivory tower. Such an ideological link makes me pay more attention to the translations. So , maybe, we need to listen to the voice of such an old man, I feel fortunate to be a collector in contemporary era, my stereoscope of the spiritual existence, or my special aesthetics, benefits from my current existing state of being a “physiognomist of living room”. So when last time after giving lectures, coming back to the office I saw a cluster of thatch on my office desk , changed my rigid atmosphere of work, just too happy was I: thanks to the classmate for send me this basin of thatch, you make my room have a strong life power.
傅元峰：我觉得可能要切断一种语言联系，重新回归到一种自我言语当中。让-吕克·南希写有《无用的共通体》一书，他思考的是如何恰切地处理个体存在与共通体之间的关系。难题在于，可能不存在一个属于精神囚徒的共通体。要在监狱当中寻找共通体是非常困难的。不存在共通体的时候，个体的存在需要自己来建设一种空中楼阁式的氛围，这种思想对接使我更多地关注译著。所以，我们可能要听一听这样的老头子的声音，我觉得在当代做一个收藏家是非常幸福的，我精神存在的一个立体性，或者说我的空间美学，得益于我现在的一个“居室相士”的存在状态。所以上次上完课回到办公室时看到一丛大茅草在我的办公桌上，改变了工作的刻板氛围。我非常开心，谢谢送给我这盆茅草的同学，你让我的空间具有很强大的生命力。
Yang Chengqian: In recent years, your work and interest turns to the more multiple and broad circumstance, from filming documentary to carrying out practice curriculum“ mutual appreciation between languages”, and thence to the personally attending the various artistic activities; from poetry to variety of art forms such as film, folk song, rock, painting, and architecture, and so on , how did this diversion happen? Relating to the fist diversion of your academic aspects we talked of above, whether there is a clue throughout these two diversions? In multiple art forms, what is the common place between them you focus on?
杨成前：近些年您的工作和兴趣转向了更多元、更宽广的境地，从拍摄纪录片到开展实践课程“语言的互鉴”，再到亲身参与各种艺术活动；从诗歌到电影、民谣、摇滚、绘画、建筑等多种艺术形式，这种转向是如何发生的？与前面谈到的您学术方面的第一次转向相联系，这两次转向是否有一条贯穿其中的线索存在呢？在多种艺术形式中，您所关注的它们之间的共同点是什么？
Fu Yuanfeng: Just now, I raised a concept called “ the universals of languages”. in single text, our seeking language is a seeking of inter-subjectivity, namely the carnival or polyphony, such a practice said by Bakhtin. If you are in an era of lacking language, there is little opportunity left for now to seek the inter-subjectivity, then it is necessary to be a researcher of inter-texts,or an author works on aesthetic attention across genres, which can show some possibilities of language. Hence, from poetry to the film , folk songs, rock music, painting and architecture, I regard it as an individual expression of which might occupy a certain “ universals of languages”. Of course, building a house is being writing. I lost some of my memories, when my ancestral home was demolished, but gain a scheme of the land, I realize that my biggest writing difficulty is this white paper of ancestral home, an empty land of over ten meters wide, and twenty meters long delivered to you, on this empty land, how would you present it as a thing of combining the space and time— there is few possibility to come back again to inhabit it. This empty land raises problem about the “current” that was avoided again and again by Edmund Husserl , it is questioning my own language.
傅元峰：刚才我提出来一个概念叫作“语言共相”。在单一文本中，我们对于语言的寻求是一种主体间性的寻求，就是所谓的嘉年华或者说复调，这样一种巴赫金学说的实践。如果你处于一个语言贫乏时代，在单一文本当中寻找主体间性的可能已经微乎其微了，那么在这个时候做一个跨文本的研究者，或者是一个跨界的美学注意力的作者，是非常有必要的，它能够显现一些语言的可能。所以，从诗歌到电影、民谣、摇滚、绘画、建筑，我把它看成是可以拥有某种“语言共相”的个体表达。建筑一座楼房当然是在书写。我老家的祖居被拆除以后，我失去了某些记忆，但获得了一个关于土地的格局，我意识到我最大的书写困难就是祖宅的这张白纸，交给你一个十几米宽、二十几米长的空地，那么在这块空地上，你如何将它呈现为一种时空融合性的东西——你再回去在那里居住的可能性很小。这块空地提出了一个胡塞尔一再躲避的关于“当下”的问题，它在拷问我自己的语言。
This language pursuing can be called “Pan- textualism”, in fact, is the gloom and happiness of the linguistically homeless dog, a freedom is included here. When we face the state of “giving off”, I feel that I am actually talking about the literature. All walks of life, are talking of the literature with their particular method as far as possible, I think this common clue is to go back to a possible discussion region of individual language. So , in fact, I was forced to seek for this place of “universals of languages” that is quite passive.
这种可以称之为“泛文本主义”的语言寻求，其实是一条语言丧家之犬的忧郁和快乐，这里面包含有一种自由。当我们面对“流露”（gives off）这种状态的时候，我感觉到我实际上是在谈论文学。各行各业都在尽可能地以他们特有的方式来谈论文学，我觉得这条共同的线索就是重新回到一个可以进行个体言语的可能性的探讨区域。所以，事实上我是被逼到这样一个寻求“语言共相”的颇为被动的位置上。
Yang Chengquan: The next question is about your poetry. Teacher Yang Jian describes your poetry with words “ sharply cold”and “ isolated cold”, and “introspection” “weakness” “showing fragility” are also the key words of your poetry’s spiritual texture, however, in reading your poetry, I felt the more the poems are presented in an isolated coldness and weakness, the more its energy of language is overwhelming, and the individual existence of the lyric subject is ,more precise, could you please expound the relation between this weakness and mightiness in your poems?
杨成前：接下来想聊聊您的诗歌。杨键老师以“高冷与孤冷”来形容您的诗，而“内省”“孱弱”“示弱”也是您诗歌精神肌质的几个关键词，但我在阅读的时候却感觉到越是散发孤冷、孱弱气质的诗，其语言场的能量就越是磅礴，抒情主体的个体存在感就越是凸显，您能否解释一下您诗歌中这种弱和强之间的关系？
Fu Yuanfeng: In fact , it is an avoidance from the “ cancer of subject”, makes me introspect myself as a shallow idealist that some of my pretty invalid cryings, makes the life come back earlier to a state of “none-giving”—this is very important. It’s not intentionally pretend to be weak, Pompei maybe is better to fake it than me, because he is so far extolling the love, what I need to do now is to deal with my relying on the kinship, I need a sort of nameless affection,as a transition station, to emancipate myself from the feeling of mourning. “ Language only need poet to descend faintly”, said by Pompei, I agree with it very much, which means to extinguish my own voice, go back to a mutter to myself. That real interesting loss, probably is not the monotonous vulnerable mourner’s self-loss on a single mean, but to hear the hubbub of things again in silence.
傅元峰：其实是对于“主体之癌”的躲避，使我反思自我作为一个浅薄的理想主义者时一些非常无效的呼喊，让生命比较早地回到一种“非给予”的状态——这是非常重要的。不是故意装弱，庞培可能比我要装得更像一些，因为他至今还在歌颂爱情，我现在要做的就是处理自己对于亲情的依赖，需要一种无名的情感，摆渡自己从悼亡感中解脱。“语言只需要诗人微弱的来临”，这是庞培说的，我非常赞成这一点，就是要熄灭自己的声音，回到一种喃喃自语当中。那种真正有趣的迷失，可能并不是一个单纯意义上的单调的哀悼者的脆弱的自我迷失，而是在静默当中重新听到事物的喧哗。
Yang Chengquan: I noticed there is a precise distinction between your poems in earlier and later period, one is the interval between texts expands from the outer side to the inner side, the other is “my”gradual displacement and retirement . Take a poem of your former creation I Need to Indulge Myself with Landscape Description as an example, in my opinion, “my”connotation and extension in poem, almost can overlap the poet as a subject. Every lyricism is the poet’s own crying, although in poem has a self-narration of “recession” and “ moving on like a snake”, the pose of language is exactly open and conspicuous, the poetic text also overflows because of the inundating lyricism; in your later poems, the pose of the lyric subject gradually tends to a reserved attitude, and the words also seem to be colder, which are realized by the internal adjusting of language, through this, your view of “being isolated” and “ present weakness” on poetry is really realized. How did such of your transformation of the poetic language gradually happen? And how did the role of the lyric subject among it transform?
杨成前：我注意到您早期的诗和后期的诗存在着明显的差别，一是文本间隙由外而内地扩展，二是“我”的逐渐位移与隐退。以您前期《我需要深深地写景》一诗为例，我读起来的感觉是，诗中“我”的内涵和外延与诗人主体几乎可以重叠，每一次抒情都是诗人自身的呼喊，虽然诗中自述道“后撤”“委身蛇行”，但语言姿态却是张扬外放的，诗歌文本也因为抒情的泛滥而满溢出来；在您之后的诗中，抒情主体的姿态逐渐趋于内敛，语词也愈加高冷，而这种姿态是通过内在语言的调整实现的，由此，您“孤立”与“示弱”的诗歌观才真正得到了实现。您这种诗歌语言的转变是如何逐渐发生的？抒情主体在其中的作用又是如何转变的？
“月亮”的诗歌身份应起源于《月亮与六便士》 ，现实与理想主义者之间有着无数的“月亮升起”时刻
Fu Yuanfeng: The “I” of the poem you raise is characterized, probably originates from a performance of myself after drunk one night in the apartment of the University of Tokyo in 2014. After finishing the writing, I found in that poem, “my” voice” being exactly high, though also of an attribution of character actually, and a sort of residue of theatre. Later when Yang Jian helped me select and edit my first collection of poetry , I did agreed with it’s being included. Further more, a feel of great narratives might be involved too , it is a residue of subject as an idealist of the early period , therefor, the later isolation and presenting weakness, are actually a free state happened necessarily when I swam over to a deep water area of things and languages.
傅元峰：你所提到的这首诗中的“我”是角色化的，大概源自我2014年在日本东京大学的公寓时，一次晚上喝了很多酒后的一种自我表演。写完之后，我发现这首诗当中“我”的声音确实很高，但确实也是角色性的，它带有一种剧场残留。杨键后来帮我编选第一部诗集的时候把它收录了进来，我是认同的。另外，就是带有一种宏大叙事的感觉，是一种早期理想主义者的主体残留，那么后来的孤立和示弱，实际上是涵泳到事物和语言的一个深水区，自然发生的一种自由状态。
Yang Chenquan: could you please have a talk about the subject of the poetry and the art of poetry, and how do the both get balanced in relation?
杨成前：请您谈谈诗艺与诗之主体，以及如何平衡两者的关系。
Fu Yuanfeng: The poem and art both need to complete themselves besides artistic transformation, if you complete a work just now includes technology, it must be a certain skill that is not intentionally made, so that this technology can be placed after creation. Hence, discussions of a work’s technology, are all placed after creation, and also a chat after meals and teas,as well as the reading was exhausted. I think the efficiency of talking about skills to works is that we must take such a technological discourse as an access of approaching experience. No matter it is the access of author or of readers, so long as it can reach the text. So, in a narrow sense, the subject of the poetry and the art of poetry, there may not exist a relation of equivalent power between them. I suppose that the poem might be a result of listening, it seems to be a speaking, but finally it would be found as a listening, as well as it seems like to be writing, but actually it is a real reading.
傅元峰：诗和艺术都需在艺术化之外完成自己，如果你刚刚完成的一部作品有技术，它必须不是一种刻意为之的技术，这样这个技术也就后置于创作了。所以对于一个作品的技术谈论，都是在创作已完，而且阅读也已穷尽之后的一种茶余饭后的闲谈。我觉得技术谈论对作品的有效性在于，必须把这样的一种技术谈论作为一种接近经验的通道，无论是作者通道还是读者通道，只要是能够抵达文本的通道。所以，从狭义上来说，诗艺与诗之主体，这两者之间可能不存在一种势均力敌的关系。我觉得诗可能是一个聆听的结果，它看起来像是在说，但最终它还是显现为听，它看起来像是在写，但其实它是真正的读。
Yang Chengquan: You are always regard the “ folk” as the place of existing various possibilities of realizing the aesthetic redemption, in the ecology of the current poetic creation and criticism, how to look at the relation between “folk world” and “ authority”? and how to dig out rich possibility of the folk world?
杨成前：您一直将“民间”视为实现审美救赎的诸多可能性的存在之所，在当前的诗歌创作与诗歌批评生态中，应如何看待“民间”与“庙堂”之间的关系？怎样才能挖掘出“民间”丰富的可能性呢？
Fu Yuanfeng: At the former stage, when I was controlled by the emotion of idealism , I exactly regarded “the folk world” as where the aesthetic redemption might happen, however, later, the “folk world” was revised by me into “space”, and was disengaged from the binarism between the “ folk world “ and “temple”, reached a circumstance of subordinate cultural existence, seeing that the “ folk world is exactly a disguised, imagined public realm, it can not split away from the subject’s historical seeking, therefore it is not of speciality, not a public realm. Hence, now we should re-think and contemplate the “folk stance” in the literary history, to see the literary history ‘s approaching individualization, indeed includes a disguised folk-approaching . In fact, the “ folk world” maybe doesn’t exist, this based on my experience of collecting and researching the folk journals. In research and investigating the folk journals over ten years ago, I assumed it was a rich mine, even the rest of my life could be cast into the research of folk journals. From the 1980s to the present several decades, many group of colleagues existed, I was ever in a cognition that they are the hope of the new poetry and the hope of the contemporary literature, hence, part of my time was invested in research of this things. But later, I found these of the “folk world” in fact are relating with “none-folk”, besides, it was also in a self-modification while maintaining a convenience of folk world, made it be a so called construction of the “loyal court”, which is its purpose. When realizing this, I was very sad and depressed. And when you analyze any linguistic group in concept of subculture , will find that their possibility of being a subculture is quite little, they have a more strong willing for seeking and attachment to the structure of power. Within it, there is a Jianghu consciousness of “ cheap copied literature” worth to be introspected.
【The private-operated poetry periodicals have no center of “purely none-official journals”, hence , the survival center of the civilian-run journals will finally come back to the space movement of the system itself, taking thoughts of system as its “ base of existence”. This is a none-self-perceived practice of the conceptualization of “none-official journal. The movement of civilian-run journals always highlight concept (unique concept), genre, pursuing an atmosphere of surviving and developing in the blossom of hundreds of flowers (civilian-run journals), this is the basic reason for their fate without a “center of civilian-run journals”. So to speak, the civilian-run journals’ subordination to certain authority, has its own necessary fortune of liberalization and conceptualization, further more, this is even a necessary politic fate of all the journals. Thereby, this is also a true proposition: there is no civilian-run journal of “none-subordinate” in this world, essentially, culture belongs to system, hence ,even if it is the journal of authority, it is subordinate too. Namely, belonging to the established institutional culture. For example: the journals of capitalistic culture is subordinate to the capitalistic system. —Translator】
傅元峰：在之前的阶段，理想主义的情绪控制我的时候，“民间”确实被我视为审美救赎的存在之所，但是后来我把“民间”修改为“空间”，从这样的一个“民间”与“庙堂”的二元对立当中脱离出来，到达某种类似于亚文化存在的处境中，就看到了“民间”实际上是一个虚假的、想象的公共领域，它不能摆脱主体的历史谋求，因此它不是空间性的，不是公共领域。所以，现在要重新思考与沉思文学史写作当中的所谓“民间立场”，看到文学史对个体化的趋近，其实包含了一种虚假的民间抵近。实际上“民间”可能是不存在的，这也基于我对中国民刊的收集和研究的经验。在十多年前对民刊的调查研究当中，我认为它是一个富矿，我的余生都可以放在民刊的研究上。从二十世纪八十年代到现在的几十年里，存在着诸多的民间同人群体，我当时认为它们是新诗的希望和当代文学的希望，所以我有一部分时间致力于做这些事情。后来我发现，这些“民间”实际上是与“非民间”同构的，而且在保留“民间”的便利性的同时还在进行自我篡改，使它成为一个所谓的“庙堂”构造，这是它的目标。在意识到这一点的时候，我非常难过和灰心。所以，对于任何的一个语言群体进行一种亚文化分析都会发现，它们作为亚文化存在的可能性极低，它们具有更加强力的对于权力结构化的谋求和依附。在这里面，有一种“文学山寨”的江湖意识值得反思。
【民刊世界并无一种“纯民刊”的“核心”，因此，民刊的生存核心最终会回到制度本身的空间运动，以制度思想为其“存在基础”。这本身是对民刊方向的“非民刊”概念化的不自觉实践。民刊运动常常在于突出概念、流派，百花齐放，这也是他们不能够有一个“民刊中心”的根本原因。可以说，民刊的依从于某种权威，是它自身自由化、概念化的必然宿命，甚至这也是所有刊物的必然政治命运。由此，这也将是一个真命题：世上并不存在一种“非从属性”的民刊，从根本上来说，文化从属于制度，因此即便是权威性的刊物也是从属性的，即从属于既定制度文化。比如：资产阶级文化刊物从属于资本主义制度。——译者评注】
从语言的角度，艾青的语言在何种维度上属于傅元峰 “语言贫困”之外的区域？这是一个值得追问的时刻
Yang Chengqian: You say that “ many things written down just for survival”, only what is collected in the two anthologies, are the things I really want to review”, I think this is a high praise for the poetry as such, meanwhile it is also an honorable designation of another writing. What I want to ask is , what do the two writing forms, scholarly and poetic writing, respectively mean to you? What’s your anticipation for the poetry?
杨成前：您说“为生计写了不少东西”，而“只有收录在两本诗集的，才是真正想回头看看的东西”，我认为这是您对诗歌本身的极高褒扬，同时也是对另一种写作的诚实指认。我想问的是，学术与写诗两种写作对您来说分别意味着什么？您对于诗歌又有何寄予呢？
Fu Yuanfeng: When I escape from knowledge, I also remind myself, that anti-intellectualism actually couldn’t be always going on, we should still try our best to explore knowledge. But exactly, knowledge can’t supply me with any indication based on myself, by now, I have precisely been aware of this problem, with age increase, I have no panic about this degradation of the energy, to put myself out of knowledge, indeed , need sometimes to ask for the obliviousness , hence , some students talk of the “ anxiety symptom of memorization”, I think we should as early as possible to break away from this practical memory. I have exactly written many theses, and now from my own perspective, I should say that those are almost nonsense just for professional evaluation. Nevertheless, not only me, the progress of Benjamin’s seeking for a tutorship under help of Adorno was also harrowing. As a approach of living, the writing formed in an admiring to profession , can not be called writing, then from the present perspective, what can be called writing, indeed, is the several poems only.
傅元峰：我躲避知识的时候，也提醒自己，确实不能是反智主义的，还是要努力求知。但确实知识不能提供我任何基于自身的指称，到现在我已经很明白地发现这一问题，所以随着年龄的增长，这种精力的退化，我并不恐慌。在知识之外的寄存，事实上有的时候需要拜求于遗忘，所以有的同学谈到了“铭记的焦虑症”，我觉得要尽早从这种实际记忆当中摆脱出来。我确实写了很多评论文章，现在看来大多是为了评职称而说的一些废话。但是，不单单是你一个人，本雅明在阿多诺的帮助下求得教职的过程也是非常令人心酸的。作为一种谋生手段，在那种敬业之心之下形成的写作是不能称为写作的，那么现在看下来，与写作沾边的，也确实是写了几首诗而已。
Yang Chengquan: Between survival and the essence of life, what enlightenment can poetry provide us? How could we explore the life existence through language and poetry? Further more, you ever said that “ everyone need to write poetry, and the method is the mere distinction between them “,then how should we “write poetry” in this era?
杨成前：在稻粱谋与生存本真之间，诗歌能为我们提供什么启示吗？我们又该如何通过诗歌、通过语言去探寻生命存在？此外，您曾说“每个人都要写诗，方式不同而已”，那么，我们应该如何在这个时代“写诗”呢？
Fu Yuanfeng: what I am seeking for actually is a kind of confusion of life. The origin of living, I propose it should still be the exploration of significance, and what interests me is only the existence. However, as soon as the experience is called “ existence”, I am really reluctant to to put “life” before it as a prefix, the “life” and “existence” are communicated,when you say “existence”, ego would disappear,this might the premise of the existence. But such an existence also is not a self-concealment of the morality or ethical consciousness, but maybe a kind of synaesthesia between different space-time. The “existence” is far more exquisite and unique than the “life”. If we can question any of the ruckus of the superficial semantic, we’ll at least come to an area of silence. Where the strongest voice of ego, sometimes doesn’t emit from ourselves, but might be anything else. This confusion, or we can call it “ synaesthesia”, is the main significance of poetry. Only when the sense of existence descends, I am quiet and free.
傅元峰：我其实要追寻一种生活的浑浊感。生存的本真，我觉得还是一种意义的寻求，我只对存在感兴趣。而一旦经验被称为“存在”的时候，我就不想冠之以“生命”这样的前缀，“生命”和“存在”是互通的，当你说“存在”的时候，自我就已经消逝不见了，这可能是存在的前提。但这种存在又不是一种具有道德感或伦理意识的自我隐匿，可能它最终是一种时空通感。“存在”是非常别致的，比“生命”更有韵致。如果我们对任何表面语义的喧哗都能够有所质疑的话，我们就最起码来到了一个沉默的区域，在这个沉默区域里，有时候最强大的自我的声音并不是在我们身上发出的，它可以是任何事物。这种混同感，或者称之为“通感”，是诗的要义。只有在存在感降临的时候，我才是安静和自由的。
网址：傅元峰访谈：本雅明、阿多诺哲学隐喻中的汉语述相 https://klqsh.com/news/view/35576
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